String Tuning: Follow up
For those who have decided to try a thicker string on your Hill style / ASL longbow...kudos. I hope you give a decent try, hundreds if not thousands of shots before you decide to like it or not. Just a few follow-up thoughts:
Firstly, I directed these comments on string tuning with a thicker string to the shooters of straight-limb longbows, as Hill and Schulz directed. Not to recurve shooters, or deflex-reflex bow shooters, or any other archery. I directed the comments to hunters who use the straight-limb longbows as compared to target shooters wanting to try for every perceived advantage available to shoot tight groups in the backyard or on the range.
Going back to one of my earliest blog posts, the straight-limb Hill style longbow/ASL has a distinct feel or hum when it is shot as originally designed so many years ago. If someone coming from other types of archery to this type of bow will notice, there isn't the quick snap tight feel that a recurve has. I recommend shooting the longbow long enough to get used to the feel rather than trying to silence it with a low-stretch string adorned with rubber, or wool, or hair silencers of whatever sort. It seems everyone wants to make the Hill style longbow feel like a recurve or deflex-reflex bow. I don't get that. I guess people want all their bows to feel like the string has come to a sudden stop. I prefer the softness of a string not slamming home.
The Hill style longbow can stand on its own merit. Its uniqueness is that it does have the slower hum feel to the shot. That spells quiet, that spells forgiveness of loose and other shooting errors, that low hum is a melody to the ears of the hardcore Hill style longbow shooter. It sings a great tune when the shot is performed well, and due to being unmuffled, it will also cry out of tune when bad form is employed. Learning your equipment and what it is telling you is part of the archery game that is being lost today. Archers want to tune out the song of the string by using silencers, tune out the flex of the arrow going through archer's paradox by using super long arrows, and tune out the feel of the bow with a heavy G10 phenolic riser or bowquiver. This blog is dedicated to preserving the Hill style so that newcomers may know what those old ways of longbow shooting were all about and enjoy the simple benefits.
Personally, I noticed in my own shooting, especially when shooting in unorthodox positions, that holding to and releasing the string, the B50 fat string felt softer in my string fingers and it released softer, if that can be explained that way. I believe the little more stretch in B50 versus a low stretch string is more forgiving of release errors. That is strictly my opinion, but I base it on trying low stretch strings for a year of hunting, with lots of bird and squirrel shooting along with other small game requiring quick shots and torqued body positions, and after year and documenting lots of "easy" misses on game, I went to a B50 fat string and immediately my arrows started scoring on game with shots that I had been missing immediately prior. I personally don't think that was coincidence, but I also realize that a lot of archers today don't hunt with their longbows in the total spirit of Hill and Schulz. They don't hunt with feet on the ground, taking whatever shot is presented, in whatever position their body may be in and using whatever speed of draw and loose is necessary to get the game. They play a different game of waiting for the game to get into position, and while the game is looking the other way, they can set up for their 8 second shot process to get an arrow off with perfect form. For those archers, they may not need the soft forgiveness of a soft, slow string material. I do, since I don't hunt that way, and I need shot forgiveness.
Remember...Hill said..."a slower bow is easier to shoot". Notice he said slower bow...not slower arrow. I think he was referring to the recoil speed and string speed coming off the fingers and how fast the bow reacted to the shot errors which may throw the arrow off-line. A string follow bow was touted to be more forgiving (as it has a slightly slower limb recoil speed) but I believe also that a softer string material aids this forgiveness as well.
"I make my string loops to fit my tips, not my handle" A funny tongue in cheek comment from John Schulz whenever he saw or had occasion to comment on someone's large-loop bowstring. The bowstring on a tiny tipped Hill style longbow should have small loops to fit. Loops that are pretty snug to the limb as they slide down the unstrung bow limb will fit the tip grooves better. I was told back in the 80's by Steve Schulz that a small loop bowstring was quieter than one with large loops that were about to fall out of the string grooves when shot. Whether that is true or not, I don't know. But I do know that I feel safer if the string loop is sized correctly to fit snugly into the string grooves of a tiny tip.
Hill taught in his Hunting the Hard Way book to pad the string loops with extra material. This was to give extra abrasion resistance for that old linen string material they used on a flemish twist string. Over the years after he wrote the book he demonstrated in photos and videos that he used both endless style and flemish strings of post-linen string material, so I gather that he thought the newer materials were strong enough to not warrant the padded loops, even though his bow tips were really tiny and had really narrow throats between the grooves.
When inspecting John Schulz's personal bowstrings, I noticed they weren't twisted tightly (more like an endless string in this regard) and didn't appear to have a lot of wax. They looked a mite dry actually compared to what I see on the strings of other archers. And the flemish string pigtails were relatively short, not a long tie-in area if you will. I had for years used lots of beeswax in making my strings, so I tried making a string like Schulz. I only waxed just enough to hold the ends together while twisting the loops and tie-in, and I barely waxed the string once it was made. I made the string to look a little dry and only twisted it up to get a nice round string, it still looked fat and the twists weren't super tight.
What I found was that my strings lasted longer, initial "stretch" period was much shorter and they didn't stretch to any great degree after making them and shooting them. I personally believe that a lot of stretch attributed to B50 dacron isn't the material per se, but the string pigtails slipping due to the excessive wax used to twist them up. I also don't believe that waxing the string on the surface does much unless it's in the area where it may scuff on an armguard. The internal fibers of the string don't get any lube after the string is made. (Unless the string is removed and dropped into a pot of melted wax, the wax is allowed to soak into the fibers and then the string is applied to the bow and excess wax oozes out and is wiped off). So since I've stopped over waxing my dacron strings and twisting them less, they are shooting noticeably quieter to my ears and they last longer. That's contrary to popular opinion, but at least that's what I've noticed in my own experience. I also believe that if the string is twisted less, then at the shot, the twists aren't uncoiling like a spring and then recoiling up like a spring as the string returns to brace. I think a highly twisted string lengthens at brace then shortens up again as the twists return...all happening in the blink of an eye but that would rob performance from the string, bow, and arrow speed.
Tuning the serving material is where a few feet per second of arrow speed can be attained easily. How smooth the release is, is a big deal. If a person uses a slick tab material or a stiff insert style Hill glove with baby-powdered-slick leather and a slick serving material like Halo, I believe the string comes off the fingers smoother and faster, which would add arrow speed without sacrificing any of the feel or low hum forgiveness of the B50 dacron string.
Now as to my arrow speed test results. I shot around 150 arrows out of many Hill style longbows, using the same strings on each, twisted to 6" of brace on each bow. I used the same stiff insert Hill style glove, shot the same archery pro shop chronograph under specific lighting in the chronograph testing area for maximum average results. My shooting style is very consistent and the furthest range of arrow speeds was 3 fps low to high. (Example 170-172 fps spread. Given a margin of error of 1 fps either way for an average, it's safe to say my arrows were going relatively the same speed average of 171 fps). I shot 3 arrow groups per string, per bow and using arrows as close to 9 gpp as possible with the lightest at 8.43 gpp on a couple of bows and the heaviest at 9 gpp on a couple of bows. I shot all the strings on all the bows, all on the same day to minimize any discrepancies in chronograph lighting, or my form, or any other variables. I used no string silences, which obviously would slow down a string speed to some extent.
My findings were that using 16 and 18 strand B-50 and 452X low strand, low stretch strings all shot the same speeds within 1-2 fps actual speed, not margin of error. Fast flight skinny string of 12 strands only netted 5 fps faster margin of error than B50 on the widest spread margin of one bow and on the other bows was 1-3 fps faster than B50 margin of error. D97 shot comparable to 452X. D97 and Fastflight in heavier 20+ strand counts fared worse.
So where are all the benefits to using a low stretch, low strand count string on a deep-cored limb Hill style ASL bow? I personally have not seen them, and I have not seen any published accounts of this type of testing on a wide range of Hill style longbows that would prove otherwise.
I think the performance is all in our heads, specifically speaking about straight-limbed longbows in the Hill style. We feel the string slamming home to a sudden loud stop and it feels faster than the slow quiet hum of a B50. That quick snap of the limbs has to be faster, right? We're told that skinny low stretch strings are faster than other kinds and materials. We have a guy shooting a single bow and arrow and string combo in his backyard saying how it's the fastest Hill style longbow out there, yet another guy picks up that same bow and says it's a dog....and vice-versa. So if we're not going for absolute speed increases and therefore use a specific low stretch skinny string, why not try the fat B50 string? Why not try a string with less wax, less twists, more strands and no silencers for a year or two, out there where it counts, in the game fields? Why not test for yourself if the string material can be more forgiving on the fingers and release when the bow is torqued as you bend to shoot that squirrel high up in the tree? Or as you twist your body around the tree trunk to shoot that rapidly disappearing buck at 15 yards? Why not try for yourself if the quiet B50 string hum isn't able to spook game more than the loud snap sound of a string filled with wool puffs or beaver pelts.
Think about in real life shooting, that 3-5 fps max gain on this type of bow, which may be negated by any use of string silencers on the skinny string, as to what that means to shooting game. 5 fps on a 20 yard shot is absolutely negligible. The difference between 170 fps (gets to the target in .352 seconds) and 175 fps (gets to the target in .342 seconds) at 20 yards is ludicrous to waste time debating.
I've tested the fat, heavy B50 dacron string to my satisfaction and concur with Hill and Schulz as to the heavy string, and I believe it helps me to
Shoot Straight.
I am currently shooting a 18 strand 2 bundle B50 Dacron on a 45# Northern Mist Shelton. It is severed with .018 Diamondback serving and my 5/16" Bohning Classic Nock fit perfectly. So after the first 20 shots, no stretch. I haven't noticed any difference in speed as compared to a 12 or 14 strand Dacron. My point on is still the same. The string is super quiet on the shot and I don't need silencers. Also the feel I get from the string on the draw is awesome. I have tried D97 on my ASL's and prefer B50 over it any time of day. This is just my opinion.
ReplyDeleteRespectfully,
James C
Question? many years ago I met an old fella shooting a Schulz bow - He was a long time oldie of shooting Hill style bows
ReplyDeleteand I remember he commented that I had my strings twisted way to tight in the loops and pig tails and overall generally
-showed me his and not much twist in the loops either? said would last longer that way
I had forgotten about this encounter until I read your last Blog
Is this what you are describing?
maybe I need to try B-50 again?
Yes, that's what I'm saying about the twist. Pluck a tightly twisted string versus one that isn't so tightly twisted and you can hear a difference in tone and loudness. But comparison between the twisting of B50 versus low stretch strings and durability isn't apples to apples . If you want to compare durability, you've got to make and shoot a tight twist b50 versus a not so tight twist B50. You've got to shoot them for the entire string life and see which last longer to really understand how they last. I'm sure that old guy shot B50 long enough to know personally how much longer the one string make would last compared to the other string make.
ReplyDeleteI’ll take a quiet bow over speed every time. Deer don’t care how fast the arrow is going. They do care how loud the bow is.
ReplyDeleteI recently changed my string back from a skinnier low stretch one to a 16 count b50 and I also perceive it more forgiving. “A heavy hunting string”.
ReplyDeleteIt is a scientific fact that humans can hear lower pitches better than deer. I wrote a blog entry about this and cited some research papers on the subject. We can all hear the lower hum of a B50 string compared to the lower stretch materials and my experiences shooting at deer without silencers echo the same conclusion that deer just do not have the same reaction to the low pitch. Higher pitches like the crack of a twig and lookout! Now this next part maybe more in my head, but I switched to the low stretch type string for a few seasons and recently went back to B50 and I immediately saw my arrows hitting closer to my spot with less variation. I just have a feeling that B50 is more forgiving of my errors in shooting. I am back in the B50 camp for good.
ReplyDeleteNate... I'm really enjoying this series of articles. Granted a lot is stuff that I already know and practice. But I'm always interested in picking up tidbits as I can. I've picked up a few here.
ReplyDeleteHere's one that might be better placed somewhere else but I've decided to put it up here.
John was watching me shoot one day and he pointed out something I didn't realizeU e p