Arrow length, weight, balance and the "influencers"....continued
First let me preface this post by saying that we are not going to try and persuade anyone from trying or using the popular methods of bare shaft tuning, heavy foc or efoc arrow balancing or using small fletching as is so prevalent in today's archery circles. This entire Blog is devoted to informing archers how the Hill style works, why it works and how to apply it in shooting the Longbow in the Hill manner. Anyone that follows the following posts on arrow making techniques will get great flying arrows with a minimum of fuss. It all starts with proper shooting form before deciding on what kind of arrow to use and how to prepare the arrow for good shooting. We can't get the cart before the horse. Lots of archers get a new Hill style longbow and first thing they're doing is trying to find arrows that will shoot out of it. They need to tune themselves first, get a consistent Hill style shooting form ingrained, then they can find arrows to fit. No shortcutting the system.
Here we have a slight digression to discuss form. Schulz said in his video that Hill would make them count to 4 as they were learning to draw and shoot. This was to ingrain a smooth rhythm to the shot cycle and not get too much ahead of oneself and start short-drawing or snap shooting before full draw was reached. This is a very overlooked statement by Schulz. Archers want to shoot fast before they're ready. Schulz said the longer you work at it, the faster you'll become, until you're finally...fast. So go slow and steady, ingraining good habits and one day you'll be as fast as needed for the situation at hand.
The swing draw can look awfully quick and haphazard if done incorrectly...and even when performed correctly. It happens quicker than the eye can see all the components at once. But we're fortunate to be able to have technology in our hands via the smartphone and we can video ourselves to see what we're doing right, or wrong and work to correct these things before they become bad habits. This photo is a still taken from the video I've attached below. A simple one-shot video that tells a lot. I look to see if I'm drawing fully to the head, which means a full draw as determined by the old fashioned arrow/yardstick to the chest. Where the middle finger touches, is full draw based on the old methods that still work to this day. Proper Hill style shooting form will result in the draw being this length. If your fingertip measurement and draw length are different, either you're stretching out the arms to reach more than a comfortable length....or you're doing a target shooting style rotational draw which puts your shooting form on a bone-on-bone skeletal support instead of the muscular support as was taught via Hill and others back in the day. My middle fingers touch the same point on the blunt head that is drawn to the back of my bow. I'm shooting with the "Hunch" as described earlier. My head position, bent arm and posture is mimicking that of Hill in the other photos. Photos that were not staged, but caught in a relaxed shooting form. Notice that his arrow head is resting on his finger...a consistent place for him in a lot of film and still photos I've seen. Sometimes on a staged photo, as I've also attached, he draws the arrow further, but you will notice his stance is more erect and "posing". On the photos I've seen of the old target archers, it's hard to tell if they are posing or shooting, as their stances are very erect. Still, they didn't need to shoot long arrows. In fact, their arrow lengths are very similar to what professional target / Olympic style archers use today. The arrow drawn back to the head and there's no extra arrow hanging in front of the bow. Why? They want good arrow balance. Arrow balance that has stood the test of time.
https://youtu.be/b7sC6Imhx_k?si=QZ0UUXQLkN2lrEd4
So you can see, that although the shot is performed quite quickly, because I've shot this way for decades, full draw and anchor is reached, bow arm and string hand stay steady as was taught by Schulz. My form probably looks more like a Hill hunch than a Schulz, but then again, my stature is very close to what Hill's was...6'2" and long arms, while Schulz was around 5'8"-5'9".
Notice the arrow heads resting in the same relative position on these various photos of Pete George, Hill, myself, etc. Also notice how Hill's broadhead arrows are pulled back until the head is almost touching the finger, or actually on the finger when he used a horizontally mounted broadhead. In the photos of the broadhead shooting, observe there is about 1/2 - 3/4" of arrow shaft visible between the back of the bow and the head. I'll explain this later.
If you'll observe closely, the photos that show a pose probably taken while shooting the arrow, the head is drawn to the back of the bow, on the finger, but there's a little head left in front of the bow. Not quite flush as the target shooters did, or like Hill did in his posing photos. I think this is because in the natural fluidity of the shot at a target, the body is allowing everything to compress and tighten in concentration on the target. Form thoughts are gone, concentration is only on the target. The target archer is always thinking of form while shooting, the hunting archer is thinking of the target, not form. The Hunch is shown in full force. However, this drawn arrow length shown by Hill is consistent with his writings where he states that the blunt arrow's length is the full draw, rim of the blunt and the broadhead arrow shaft is cut about 1 1/2" longer for the head.
This brings us to varying arrow lengths. Hill said the blunt arrow shaft is cut one length, and the broadhead arrow is cut another length. Schulz also wrote that Hill taught him this and if someone interested in good arrow flight would do the same. How can this work? Well, its about balance and arrow weight. Remember what kind of tackle Hill was using when he wrote this. An arrow shaft cut to say...27" will end up a little longer when you slide the blunt over the end. If the blunt is weighted with lead (another future blog in our arrow making)...which we don't know if Hill ever did... then that makes the blunt arrow a little longer yet. Therefore an arrow shaft cut 27" long, might end up about 27 3/8" total arrow length to the end of the blunt. Follow me? Hill then said to cut the broadhead arrows about 1 1/2" longer. Hill's broadheads at the time had a parallel ferrule which took up some room of that extra 1 1/2". Nowadays, we have a 1" taper the fits into the broadhead. If a broadhead arrow shaft is cut 1 1/2" longer, and the broadhead mounted, 1" of the 1 1/2" is inside the head and the result will be a broadhead arrow with the back of the head about 1/2 longer than the draw length. This is shown in the photos of Hill drawing a broadhead arrow.
These two factors now reveal that with a 27" back of the bow draw length, the end of a blunt arrow is at 27 3/8" and the back of the broadhead is at 27 1/2". Still follow me? Now the only real difference between the blunt arrow and the broadhead arrow is about 1/8" of "dead wood" as Hill described it...and the broadhead length.
This is where this all ties together and explains that Schulz said Hill was after as good a flight of an arrow as possible and we too, should follow this example if we want good arrow flight. (Concerning wood arrows out of longbows of course). The length of a Hill style 3:1 broadhead is 3" plus the little extra bit of shaft that's longer than the blunt arrow; let's say it's 3 1/2". If the heads of the two types of arrows weigh the same, due to the longer broadhead making the total broadhead arrow length about 3 1/2" longer than the blunt arrow...the balance point of the finished arrow moves. Where? Rearward in relation to the same center point of the blunt arrow. Why? Because the total arrow length is longer, that means the center point of the arrow is not the same as the blunt arrow. Now because the total broadhead arrow length is 3 1/2" longer, we have to increase the head weight a little to get our balance back to the same relative point as the blunt arrow.
There you have it. A lighter .38 (around 75 grains) shell casing arrow ...finishing out at 27 3/8" total length, will have a foc balance point that is almost the same measurement as a 31" total length arrow which includes a 3" long 150 grain broad. The cut shaft lengths will be different, and the head weights are different, which makes the dynamic spines a little different. However, as we discussed earlier, a stiffer arrow will push against the bow slightly, moving it to the side, so this negates a lot of the dynamic spine differences between the two arrows. Schulz told me that usually on his broadhead arrows, he used the arrow spine of the next group up from his blunt arrows. Example...blunt arrows were 60/64# shafts and broadhead arrows were 65/69# shafts. Personally, I've found that I get away with closer arrow grouping than that and we'll be diving into that part as start sorting arrows.
The example listed above, show how close we can balance arrows of various head weights for good arrow flight. The thing that can skew this approach is if you are using physically lighter arrows and want some more head weight in the blunt arrows to get the total arrow weights to match. Well, before getting too excited, go out and shoot some arrows and see how well they actually fly before doing too much tinkering. If you find you want a heavier blunt arrow...no harm done. Add some melted lead to the .38 casing to bring up the weight and doing so will move the foc forward a bit. No fear here. Dr. Elmer stated that the balance points of good flying arrows could be from 1" in front of center to as much as 4 1/2" in front of center as a maximum. These dimensions, depending on arrow wood material and mass weight, make the foc % range from about 10% to 17%, which is under the 20% efoc that we want to stay clear of. Foc around 20% or higher is very tricky to get good arrow flight and is critical of the release. Foc percentages around 10-15% are very good for a hunting arrow, and I prefer my arrows to be around 12% which is that sweetspot of 2 1/4" up to 3" balance point front of center.
I know this is a lot of information to digest. I've attempted to give it out in stages, so we can keep the horse in front of the cart. Taking care of business the right way. Giving out the knowledge behind what makes a good and proper flying wood arrow, according to the old methods which Hill used and passed along to others, including Schulz. Is it the only way? Nope, but understanding this method of making arrows will indeed help you to...
Shoot Straight.
Nate- having trouble with this?
ReplyDelete" Where? Rearward in relation to the same center point of the blunt arrow. Why? Because the total arrow length is longer"
in my mind I say forward
mid point of broadhead arrow moves forward of the blunt arrow and balance point would be ahead of this? if same weight and even further foward if broadhead heavier?
fix me here
Andy, basically like this, I'll use my arrows as an example:
DeleteBlunt arrow, .38 shell with lead at 125 gr., 27 3/4" to end of blunt, the center is 13 7/8" from the front end, with a balance point 2 1/4" in front of middle.
My broadhead arrow, 145 gr Hunter Head is 30 1/4" total length, center point is 15 1/8" and my balance point is 2 1/4" in front of that. Both arrows have the same relative balance point in front of center although the total lengths differ.
If I was to use a lighter broadhead, that makes the front end lighter and the back end heavier so my balance point moves rearward. If I weight the blunt heavier to bring up my arrow weight, then that makes the blunt arrow balance further forward.
If you have a blunt arrow and broadhead arrow that weigh exactly the same with the same point weight, and the same back of point length, the total arrow lengths will differ because of the broadhead length versus the blunt length and that makes the balance points different.
So the idea is to make the arrows balance the same, or as close as possible, and they'll have relatively the same flight, even if the total arrows weights vary a bit or the spine varies a bit.
When archers leave their arrow long to tune with a field point and then they add a long broadhead even if it's the same grain weight, the balance point changes. If the balance point gets too close to 20% foc the release becomes more critical... Then if they short draw in the excitement of a downward shot at a deer from a tree stand, the arrow will be very out of balance and out of tune and more susceptible to a poor release, and arrow penetration suffers.
Thanks Nate
ReplyDeletegot it in my head now
again, thanks for the long response but clarified now
One of my pet peeves over the years was AMO refusal to include the length of the point when figuring total length of arrow and figuring its subsequent balance point. How absurd is it that the point not be figured in total arrow length.
ReplyDeleteThank you Nate for explaining this in the correct way.
Hi Nate, I have two longbows, one a standard handle and the other a reverse handle. The bows are the same draw weight and I shoot the same arrows out of both bows. After reading your blog my arrows are obviously too long according to your recommendation so I am going to shorten them but I don’t like the thought of having to keep track of two sets of arrows. I’m thinking of adjusting the length for the reverse handle and just having the arrows a little long for the standard handle. What is your advice? Thanks
ReplyDeletePaul, if the handle depths are about the same for each bow, your draw length should be the same. The reverse handle bow limbs won't be bent as much as full draw, but that doesn't change the draw length in my mind. Does it change the power stroke of the bow and possibly the arrow spine needs? Yes it could compared to the regular handle bow.
DeleteSo you mention adjusting arrow length for the reverse handle bow... Is this for the arrow tuning? I'd wager that both bows would shoot the same arrow lengths just fine if you just go out and shoot the line, and relax the mind a bit and have fun instead of trying to stack arrows in a target