Tiller and Alignment Check
"I can pretty much look at the lines of a braced bow and tell you how it shoots" John Schulz interview in Traditional Bowhunter Magazine
So...you've got yourself a Hill style longbow or ASL and you're having fits getting the bow to shoot for you. If you're shooting it correctly, a longbow of this type is extremely forgiving of shooting errors. If the bow is tillered and aligned correctly that is...and if you're shooting it with proper form. Let's address these in different approaches.
First...Tiller and alignment. Most people think of limb tiller as the way the limbs bend evenly when the bow is drawn. They go to a standard measurement of the spacing from the bow limb belly to the string at the points immediately above and below the handle fadeouts. Most longbows of this style will be 1/8" - 3/16" positive tiller. That means the gap from bow to string on the top limb will be greater than the gap at the same position on the lower limb. But that's not the whole story.
We have to have a baseline, a starting point because when the string is released, the limbs will attempt to get back to that position. If that starting point is not equal from limb to limb, how can we ever expect the bow limbs to flex and recoil evenly? So at brace, the first thing to do is trace the upper and lower limbs on some paper to see if they match. They have to. This is the starting point. Now, the limb lengths are different in a proper longbow of this style and that will be explained later on. So you actually trace the longer, upper limb from handle down the fadeout to the string groove while the bow is braced. Then flip the bow over and lay the shorter lower limb on that tracing. Align at the fadeout sweeps. If the limb arcs do not match, then the bow will probably never return to an equal brace height when the string is released from full draw. The limb recoils rates will have to be adjusted by watching the bending of the limbs on a tiller board, but at the end of the recoil, they need to be arriving at the same point. I hope that makes sense. Just a measurement of tiller doesn't tell that story. This is a check of the static limb tiller.
Then you have to draw the bow and watch the limbs bending in unison and there should be no flat spots along the limbs where the limbs don't bend enough, or other places where the limbs look to bend too much. They must bend equally as the bow is drawn and string released.
The above two factors affect the limb recoil timing. If the limbs don't bend evenly...and if they do not return to the same even starting point, then the timing of the limbs will be off and consistent shooting will be nigh impossible, along with increased hand shock as a result. Shooting a 12 grain per pound arrow or using a low stretch string with silencers will only mask what the issue is...improper tiller and timing.
Limb alignment. The string must travel from string nock to string nock in a straight line down the middle of each limb and though the center of the belly peak of the handle. Period. If not, the bow is not aligned. In a self-wood bow, the limbs can be all wavy and if the string tracks through the center of the handle, the bow can be a good shooter, but there must be enough limb width material to counteract the off-alignment limbs. In a narrow Hill style / ASL bow, there isn't that forgiveness. The limbs have to align.
Most guys I've seen check alignment by sighting down the bow from end to end. But they only get it half-way correct. Schulz showed me that you have to hang the bow from the tips being supported on each end. Properly done, you rest one limb tip on a support like a table top and hold the other tip lightly resting in your fingertips and let the bow handle hang down, string up. Gravity pulls the bow vertical as you sight down the limbs and string. There is no manipulation of the bow to make it align. If there is any variation along the limb and the string doesn't track down the center of the limb, then the bow is out of alignment. Can the bow be shot this way? Sure. I've seen many, many longbows from major bowmakers with limbs terribly out of alignment...some as much as 3/4". Depending on which direction the string tracks, it may be pushing the string into great alignment of the arrow, or maybe not. But if the string does not push the arrow in a consistently straight path, in regards to their sight window and hand position on the bow, how can they expect to be accurate? If you have good outdoor lighting and can get the sun to aid you, you can position the bow to hang with the sun casting a string shadow on the belly of the limbs and that shadow line when lined up with the string above it, will show even better how the limbs are aligning.
So now, hopefully you find that your bow is aligned and tillered correctly and you still can't shoot good groups. One of the most important things to understand with the bow design is proper hand placement on the handle. The lower limb is inherently shorter than the top limb due to the design because the middle of the bow isn't in the middle of the grip. Our hand is putting pressure on the grip below center line, and our fingers are grabbing the string above the centerline. So the bottom limb needs to be stiffer and the top limb weaker. This is accomplished by making the limbs different lengths as a starting point. If you grip the bow too loosely, this allows the stiffer lower limb to come back towards you as you don't bend it enough. This throws the bow limbs out of dynamic tiller and timing. Hill and Schulz taught to grab ahold of the bow, a little more firmly with the bottom two fingers as they are in line with the arm bones and are our gripping fingers of the hand. This action helps keep the lower limb from bending back to the shooter and keeps the lower limb bending correctly during the shot. It is important to that the length of the grip fits your hand. If you have a short hand and a long handle grip area, you may have to position your hand in a different place on the handle to get the proper bending of the limbs which will then affect the dynamic tiller and your accuracy and overall bow shooting feel.
This goes back to an early post about getting used to the Hill style / ASL and shooting it until it feels normal and comfortable before doing any arrow tuning. Schulz said it's usually the archer that needs tuning, not the bow. This means don't get too wrapped up in tuning and/or finding arrows that will shoot good out of the bow when you first start shooting it. Check the static brace height limb tracing (with a brace height somewhere around 6") and string alignment first. Make sure your bow is built well, or have a discussion with the bowyer. Go out with some arrows that are close, and then just shoot them. Don't shoot heavy logs, shoot a decent 8-9 gpp arrow, with no string silencers or bowquiver on the bow and just shoot 500 to 1000 shots getting the feel of the bow. Don't be worried about erratic arrow flight at first. Listen to the bow, get used to the feel, especially if you are accustomed to the feel of a recurve or D/R bow. Let the bow tell you some things. Once you're settled into it and it feels more natural, which takes a bunch more shooting that we usually account for, then you can start seeing which arrows fly good from it. Chances are, you'll find there is quite the spine range of arrows that will fly straight...That's part of the forgiving nature of this longbow style. If you don't dedicate yourself to shooting only that bow for awhile, and instead do the bow-du-jour approach, then you are only hurting your chances to really enjoy all this style of bow has to offer.
More to come regarding shooting style and how it ties into the Hill style / ASL 's longbow design. Until then,
Shoot straight.
Nate, I guess I am considered a 'newbie'; Sure, I shot longbows, but never with the understanding that apparently is needed to do things correctly. The old adage 'its a simple stick and string' was never further from the truth. I am truly enjoying your writings Nate. Thank you.
ReplyDeleteso the bow is designed to have a dynamic tiller with the heel of the bow hand sown sorta oppose of Asbell showing the light draw recurve when he placed the heel down in his video . being that bow is designed with a thumb web throat grip
ReplyDeleteinteresting
read lota nice information -had to read it twice to get it
thanks
The Hill style or ASL is designed to have a low heel position on the handle, whereas most recurves and some D/R and hybrid bows are designed with a higher web of the hand point of contact on the handle. With the longer, stiffer handle section of these other bows, hand placement may not be as critical, but on the short handled riser of a Hill style or ASL, hand placement is important. That said, the simple straight or slightly dished Hill style longbow handle is easy to have a repeatable hand placement when the bow is held in unorthodox positions or when gripped quickly for a quick shot. The Hill style longbow handle is very forgiving of slight hand positions as long as the heel of the hand is down on the grip, adding to it's reputation of being a forgiving bow style. However, if you grip it like another kind of bow, you'll find it's not as forgiving. Shoot the bow like it was designed for best results, always and in every situation.
ReplyDeleteI had those two matching Stykbo Purists, 1 left and 1 right, I never could shoot those fluid and pack tight groups, I had to stop the draw and allow the bows to float. When I shoot fast at small game, I know I am squeezing rosin out of the grip at times. That makes any bow that needs delicate handling not so good for fast small game hunting.
DeleteI always shot my ASL’s heel of hand down
ReplyDeleteWas taught that
Just never realized why until I read your post
Learning a lot here thanks for sharing your knowledge here
Excellent info on the intricacies of building a top notch ASL. I imagine there are more than a few folks dragging out the butcher paper to trace their limbs. Sure appreciate the education on how to evaluate the build of an ASL Nate!
ReplyDeleteAnother informative post.
ReplyDeleteI shoot 8gpp and have excellent trajectory no handshock and no problems penetrating game animals. I’ve found the quickest way to success with the Hill style of hunting/shooting is to just listen to what Hill and Schulz said and not try to modify the information. There was no need for 12-14 gpp arrows in Hills time and there still is not.
David Phillips
Thanks for sharing your knowledge Nate, it’s very much appreciated.
ReplyDeletePaul Palmer
Interesting and the most important part is the arrow weight recommendation. It’s what I use mainly - around 9gpp
ReplyDeleteThank you for the new post Nate.
ReplyDeleteYou must be reading my mind since I'm thinking of trying my hand at making another bow and am in the process of breaking in a brand new one.
It's a 55# R/D, not a Hill Style ASL yet, that's replacing my identical 42#'er. I started with 10 gpp arrows to start to get a feel for the bow, which didn't take long for me since I've been shooting its lower poundage twin for almost a year. Now that the string is stretched and I'm building consistency with it, I'm playing around with some different arrows anywhere between 8 and 12 gpp. I'm not sure I'm experienced enough yet to feel the difference in them, or maybe the bow is well enough tillered that the difference is minimal, but I sure can see it with their speed an trajectory. I suppose the lighter arrows do impart a bit more of a "twang" into the bow on release, but not much.
I look forward to hearing what you have to share with us next!
A muscle affliction has me shooting 35 lbs. . My arrows are 14gpp. Would shooting 8-10gpp be adequate for whitetail deer? The flight of these lite arrows is significantly better however to get the weight down, wooden arrows are no longer a choice.
ReplyDeleteThat depends on many factors, including type of bow, etc. However a friend of mine's wife, shoots around 36# on her D/R longbow and uses cedar arrows around 400 grains and Zwickey Eskimos or Razorheads and she shoots through all her Iowa deer from the ground. That's arrows around 11 gpp. I know there are people shooting sub-400 gr. arrows and killing whitetail deer no problem, just depends on your setup, shooting from the ground or tree, broadhead used, etc. But the essence is that there is usually no need for shooting the super heavy logs that are the rage these days
DeleteThank you for your reply. Just to address some of the points you mentioned, the bow is a Miller Old Tom and I’m using Grizzly or Ace broadheads from the ground. 35 lbs is new for me and I just want to be ethical with my equipment. Thanks again.
DeleteWith those heads and a cedar arrows, arrows around 400 gr. no problem on deer at decent distances.
ReplyDeleteNate: If the lower limb is stiffer and shorter than the upper limb, how can it exactly trace the upper limb? Is it because the lower limb in and of itself the same as the upper limb, i.e., the same stack thickness and taper, but it when shortened it bends less when drawn, vis-a-vis the upper limb. Just trying to wrap my head around this one.
ReplyDeleteJ. The limb arcs are the same, from the handle down, although the lower limb is shorter. Being that the lower limb is shorter, it is inherently made stiffer when the string is drawn.
ReplyDeleteIf you could imagine a Hill style bow with equal length limbs, exact amount of riser above and below center, and placing an arrow at the center point where also a single point of contact of 1/2" on the handle is applied by the hand, and drawing the bow with only a hook at the center of the string. The limbs would bend equally with equal tension. Then, slide the arrow up the bow a few inches and place fingers on the string a few inches above center and draw, keeping the same center point of contact on the handle. The bow would rock/tilt with the upper limb coming back towards the shooter. Now slide the point of contact on the handle down the bow a few inches...and draw the string above center...the bow will rock/tilt even more. This is an exaggeration of course, but it shows that the top limb when the forces are applied this way, needs to be "weakened" to not bend back or tilt back to the shooter so much (weakening the limb by lengthening it)
I can make both limbs draw equally back at the same time (proper tiller) by only weakening the top limb. As the top limb weakens, the bow doesn't rock/tilt back to the shooter as much. In essence this will require a much weaker top limb than bottom limb to get them to bend equally. Or...I can stiffen the bottom limb at the same time I'm weakening the top limb and arrive at a state of harmony and equal limb tension without weakening the top limb too much. This is what having the shorter bottom limb is doing....building in a stiffer tension so that the top limb doesn't need to be overly weakened. Gripping the handle at a point below center is helping to stiffen the lower limb which helps to rock/tilt the upper limb forward to a place of uniform tension between the two limbs. If the handle isn't gripped firmly enough by the lower fingers, the lower part of the handle, and therefore the lower limb, will float and drift back towards the shooter more than it should which makes the limb tensions not the same and the limb recovery upon release won't be the same....and that causes hand shock and badly flying arrows.
The tracing of the limbs is in a static, braced position. There isn't too much tension on the limbs at that point. It's just a place of equal tension to start and end the power stroke of the limbs. The bending of the limbs in unison during the draw is done by dynamic tillering the bow. This can be adjusted by how much material is removed from the limbs during the tillering process. However, beginning the limbs at the same point of static stiffness helps dramatically the process of the dynamic tillering.I hope this makes some sense?
Excellent explanation. Now it makes sense to me. I really want to build one now. Thanks Nate.
ReplyDelete